Necessity of EGT readings for 600-700hp range 20b
07-15-14, 06:06 PM
#1
Necessity of EGT readings for 600-700hp range 20b
Hello,
For those of you who have made big hp on the 20b and have been around the tuning process, how would you rate the necessity of EGT readings?
Currently working on a 20b FD swap. Sp, 1600/850, bws480, lts12, lsx coils, and 1,000cc CM10 nozzle of 50/50 water/methanol mixture on boost.
The initial goal is to run somewhere around 18-20psi at high boost. I'm anticipating this to be somewhere around ~650rwhp which is plenty of power for the time being, until I have time for wide body rear/tires/t56
I don't have an exact explanation/evidence to support why I believe 18-20psi is the sweet spot
however, I ran 18-20psi on the 13b with water/meth and the motor took countless lashings. Based upon reviews of others setups, it seems that high teens/low 20's seems the most reasonable range for pump+water.
Now, on to the question; if AFR in peak tq / pwrband is a constant nice rich number to provide a buffer for variation in airflow/heat across the rotors, will EGT also be necessary to utilize in the tuning process for these power goals?
If so, should I tap all 3 manifold runners individually?
My concern is that now with 3 rotors there could be large variation in temps across the rotors that I do not realize unless I see readings individually. However it could be unnecessary to monitor at these boost levels if timing and afr is conservative?
Obviously it can only help the tune, but its damn $ expensive to setup 3 sensors.
For those of you who have made big hp on the 20b and have been around the tuning process, how would you rate the necessity of EGT readings?
Currently working on a 20b FD swap. Sp, 1600/850, bws480, lts12, lsx coils, and 1,000cc CM10 nozzle of 50/50 water/methanol mixture on boost.
The initial goal is to run somewhere around 18-20psi at high boost. I'm anticipating this to be somewhere around ~650rwhp which is plenty of power for the time being, until I have time for wide body rear/tires/t56
I don't have an exact explanation/evidence to support why I believe 18-20psi is the sweet spot
however, I ran 18-20psi on the 13b with water/meth and the motor took countless lashings. Based upon reviews of others setups, it seems that high teens/low 20's seems the most reasonable range for pump+water.Now, on to the question; if AFR in peak tq / pwrband is a constant nice rich number to provide a buffer for variation in airflow/heat across the rotors, will EGT also be necessary to utilize in the tuning process for these power goals?
If so, should I tap all 3 manifold runners individually?
My concern is that now with 3 rotors there could be large variation in temps across the rotors that I do not realize unless I see readings individually. However it could be unnecessary to monitor at these boost levels if timing and afr is conservative?
Obviously it can only help the tune, but its damn $ expensive to setup 3 sensors.
07-15-14, 06:58 PM
#2
Individual egts tell you everything you need to know about the condition of the individual combustion chambers as the engine runs. You can even tell which chamber has weaker compression vs the others based on the temp differentials. You can then adjust the individual injector to compensate with your E11. A/F only gives you the combined readings. I installed them on my NA 20b and will never do another project wthout them. I had an injector fail and I could quicky see what chamber it was because the temps started dropping like a rock. That is valuable real time info you can't pass up. I bought the PLX devices with single gauge to make a clean install.
07-15-14, 11:54 PM
#3
Individual egts tell you everything you need to know about the condition of the individual combustion chambers as the engine runs. You can even tell which chamber has weaker compression vs the others based on the temp differentials. You can then adjust the individual injector to compensate with your E11. A/F only gives you the combined readings. I installed them on my NA 20b and will never do another project wthout them. I had an injector fail and I could quicky see what chamber it was because the temps started dropping like a rock. That is valuable real time info you can't pass up. I bought the PLX devices with single gauge to make a clean install.
Excellent info. Sounds like the smartest investment to protect the engine.
07-16-14, 03:38 AM
#5
talking head
i have 2 PLX EGT modules to run two sensors.. but then i have a 13bt..
the single DM6 gauge will recall them as EGT 1 and EGT 2 ( with setpoints for alarm if required )
but not sure if will go to EGT 3 hence why i think t-von is running each with its own dedicated DM5 or DM6 display
the single DM6 gauge will recall them as EGT 1 and EGT 2 ( with setpoints for alarm if required )
but not sure if will go to EGT 3 hence why i think t-von is running each with its own dedicated DM5 or DM6 display
I'm guessing a single gross reading is not even close to as useful as 3 numbers
Trending Topics
07-16-14, 08:21 AM
#8
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
This looks like a good deal at <$500 for 4 channels display and sensors.
I would expect that in order to use this data to its fullest potential, you'd want a unit that can log EGT/RPM?
This looks like a good deal at <$500 for 4 channels display and sensors.
I would expect that in order to use this data to its fullest potential, you'd want a unit that can log EGT/RPM?
07-16-14, 09:05 AM
#9
talking head
the plx has a data channel out so you can log it your haltech etc ( which has your rpm and other plots )
PLX also its own data logging system with the kiwi IMFD sytem etc
.. though they lack an rpm logger for cars without OBD2
PLX also its own data logging system with the kiwi IMFD sytem etc
.. though they lack an rpm logger for cars without OBD2
07-17-14, 06:37 PM
#13
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
07-18-14, 08:40 AM
#14
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
4-Channel EGT Digital Pyrometer Gauge + Probe Kit - Gas Race Series EP
this one looks pretty juicy thanks
07-20-14, 02:05 PM
#15
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if i had only the one, i would put it on the center rotor, and just tune to that. allegedly it runs the most hot/lean, so it would be your tuning limitation
07-22-14, 02:07 PM
#18
I'm starting to think single EGT is really not going to make much of a difference. I know it definitely helps to find the right spot with timing, however, I can't log through the ECU, and I can't justify spending so much on 3 sensors and having to run 3 programs on my laptop. 1 for AFR/RPM, 1 for the EGT/RPM and 1 for the Microtech. Way to crude.
I'm thinking as long as I keep the timing reasonable, AFR ~11.0, 1000cc water/meth, and watch IAT, the motor should be fine at the target boost levels. I mean after all, there shouldn't be that much difference between tuning a 13b and a 20b at comparable levels.
If the goal was 30psi+, way above the range of pump gas, pushing into no-mans-land it would be more of a screaming requirement.
Going to just wait and see what the tuner recommends.
I'm thinking as long as I keep the timing reasonable, AFR ~11.0, 1000cc water/meth, and watch IAT, the motor should be fine at the target boost levels. I mean after all, there shouldn't be that much difference between tuning a 13b and a 20b at comparable levels.
If the goal was 30psi+, way above the range of pump gas, pushing into no-mans-land it would be more of a screaming requirement.
Going to just wait and see what the tuner recommends.
07-24-14, 02:33 PM
#19
You can do it without EGT, as you have stated above. I've done it many times at similar power levels.
The issue is that without it, timing is just a guess, and you really won't know how close to the edge you are. You may also have to stay conservative enough that you lose a decent chunk of power.
That said, you really only need it for initial tuning, once you get the timing maps set, you can retune with just a wideband fairly safely unless you make a big change.
Additionally, if your tuner is experienced enough, they can probably give you a pretty good guess for safe timing even without EGTs.
You could also invest in a knock sensor setup, which doesn't tell you quite as much but is a more general safety measure than EGT anyway.
On a side note, you should be able to log AFR with your microtech, as long as your wideband controller has scalable outputs, you can set it to 0-5v linear if you have the wideband option or even 0-1v linear if you don't. The Microtech will log it accurately either way.
To be honest, this type of thing is the reason I will be switching to AEM this build, because I am tired of limiting my data to what the Microtech can deal with.
The issue is that without it, timing is just a guess, and you really won't know how close to the edge you are. You may also have to stay conservative enough that you lose a decent chunk of power.
That said, you really only need it for initial tuning, once you get the timing maps set, you can retune with just a wideband fairly safely unless you make a big change.
Additionally, if your tuner is experienced enough, they can probably give you a pretty good guess for safe timing even without EGTs.
You could also invest in a knock sensor setup, which doesn't tell you quite as much but is a more general safety measure than EGT anyway.
On a side note, you should be able to log AFR with your microtech, as long as your wideband controller has scalable outputs, you can set it to 0-5v linear if you have the wideband option or even 0-1v linear if you don't. The Microtech will log it accurately either way.
To be honest, this type of thing is the reason I will be switching to AEM this build, because I am tired of limiting my data to what the Microtech can deal with.
07-24-14, 03:18 PM
#20
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07-25-14, 08:51 AM
#21
You can do it without EGT, as you have stated above. I've done it many times at similar power levels.
The issue is that without it, timing is just a guess, and you really won't know how close to the edge you are. You may also have to stay conservative enough that you lose a decent chunk of power.
That said, you really only need it for initial tuning, once you get the timing maps set, you can retune with just a wideband fairly safely unless you make a big change.
Additionally, if your tuner is experienced enough, they can probably give you a pretty good guess for safe timing even without EGTs.
You could also invest in a knock sensor setup, which doesn't tell you quite as much but is a more general safety measure than EGT anyway.
On a side note, you should be able to log AFR with your microtech, as long as your wideband controller has scalable outputs, you can set it to 0-5v linear if you have the wideband option or even 0-1v linear if you don't. The Microtech will log it accurately either way.
To be honest, this type of thing is the reason I will be switching to AEM this build, because I am tired of limiting my data to what the Microtech can deal with.
The issue is that without it, timing is just a guess, and you really won't know how close to the edge you are. You may also have to stay conservative enough that you lose a decent chunk of power.
That said, you really only need it for initial tuning, once you get the timing maps set, you can retune with just a wideband fairly safely unless you make a big change.
Additionally, if your tuner is experienced enough, they can probably give you a pretty good guess for safe timing even without EGTs.
You could also invest in a knock sensor setup, which doesn't tell you quite as much but is a more general safety measure than EGT anyway.
On a side note, you should be able to log AFR with your microtech, as long as your wideband controller has scalable outputs, you can set it to 0-5v linear if you have the wideband option or even 0-1v linear if you don't. The Microtech will log it accurately either way.
To be honest, this type of thing is the reason I will be switching to AEM this build, because I am tired of limiting my data to what the Microtech can deal with.
I appreciate the feedback Patman.
I'm planning to have someone that's very experienced with 20b's tune the car. Hopefully they will be able to predict the timing based upon experience with this motor. I'm fine with a conservative tune. I have no reason to push the edge as the 20b will already produce insane power compared to the 13b.
Are you positive about the Microtech logging AFR? Something tells me that that it will be grossly inaccurate. I used to have an AEM V1 on my 13b, an absolutely fantastic ECU. Easy to use and tons of features. When setting up the Wideband Input, I ran a 0-5v input from my wideband controller to the ECU. However, the readings were considerably off! My gauge would read 15.0 while the ECU would register 14.0. I had to adjust the "Wideband Gain Input", which apparently is a multiplier to translate the 5v signal in a +/- direction to match in the ECU as all widebands have a slightly different calibration range.
To my limited knowledge on Microtechs, I've not stumbled across any gain function. What are you thought on this?
07-26-14, 11:33 AM
#22
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[QUOTE=Monsterbox;11774680]. I'm fine with a conservative tune. I have no reason to push the edge as the 20b will already produce insane power compared to the 13b.
07-29-14, 03:41 PM
#23
I appreciate the feedback Patman.
I'm planning to have someone that's very experienced with 20b's tune the car. Hopefully they will be able to predict the timing based upon experience with this motor. I'm fine with a conservative tune. I have no reason to push the edge as the 20b will already produce insane power compared to the 13b.
Are you positive about the Microtech logging AFR? Something tells me that that it will be grossly inaccurate.
To my limited knowledge on Microtechs, I've not stumbled across any gain function. What are you thought on this?
I'm planning to have someone that's very experienced with 20b's tune the car. Hopefully they will be able to predict the timing based upon experience with this motor. I'm fine with a conservative tune. I have no reason to push the edge as the 20b will already produce insane power compared to the 13b.
Are you positive about the Microtech logging AFR? Something tells me that that it will be grossly inaccurate.
To my limited knowledge on Microtechs, I've not stumbled across any gain function. What are you thought on this?
Yes, I am positive. Did it for years. Microtech cannot be calibrated and just assumes a linear 0-5v signal. I do not remember the range it uses, but it is something like 0v=10.0 and 5V=19.9.
What you can do is calibrate your wideband to provide an output curve that matches this, and then the Microtech will display the right values. Even if you don't have the wideband option, it should still be possible to calibrate the wideband output to work with the narrowband input, just might take a little more fiddling to get it right.
It should be easy enough to run a log with both at the same time once you get it set up and make sure it agrees.
07-30-14, 08:53 AM
#24
If your tuner is very experienced, why not ask them whether they are comfortable with guessing timing maps or need an EGT probe?
Yes, I am positive. Did it for years. Microtech cannot be calibrated and just assumes a linear 0-5v signal. I do not remember the range it uses, but it is something like 0v=10.0 and 5V=19.9.
What you can do is calibrate your wideband to provide an output curve that matches this, and then the Microtech will display the right values. Even if you don't have the wideband option, it should still be possible to calibrate the wideband output to work with the narrowband input, just might take a little more fiddling to get it right.
It should be easy enough to run a log with both at the same time once you get it set up and make sure it agrees.
Yes, I am positive. Did it for years. Microtech cannot be calibrated and just assumes a linear 0-5v signal. I do not remember the range it uses, but it is something like 0v=10.0 and 5V=19.9.
What you can do is calibrate your wideband to provide an output curve that matches this, and then the Microtech will display the right values. Even if you don't have the wideband option, it should still be possible to calibrate the wideband output to work with the narrowband input, just might take a little more fiddling to get it right.
It should be easy enough to run a log with both at the same time once you get it set up and make sure it agrees.
Hmm, this makes sense, I just don't understand how to calibrate the wideband to match a 0-5v signal that is accurate with the Microtech cal. The zeitronix is not 0v=10.0, I believe its lower than 10.0. There's not a way to adjust through the zeitronix box. All I can think of is wiring in something that would allow manual voltage adjustment.
08-08-14, 12:16 PM
#25
I guess to make a long story short, you can make the Microtech work with a wideband, but ONLY if you wideband's analog output can be calibrated to match Microtech's (non-adjustable) input curve.